Thursday, January 1, 2009



Tex said...

Nice firework picture Dave, did you take it?

David Robison said...


No, Tex, I didn't take this one, although I do have some of my own. This is a stock photo I have.


Tex said...

I just sent a "first phase" price reduction spreadsheet to Dave, hopefully he can post it on "my" blog. Overall, the price reductions were about 16%, over a range of mostly Artistry and Nutrilite products, with a couple of Nutrilite products going up in price.

Tex said...

Looks like ibofb's smarmy, smart-ass "Told ya so" is wrong:

Tex said...

Check out pcj's Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:01 pm entry on qblog, at this link:

Someone else you has been in Amway for 15 years (cough, cough) was recently complaining that when he went to one of the Amway 'road shows' it was all colors other than white. ---- The basis of my "complaining" was that the English speaking prospects and IBO's weren't getting in, or quickly quitting, when they saw the Internet content, whereas the minorities don't know English and/or don't pay as much attention to English information describing the tool scam and other issues on the Internet. It's hard to think when all you do is change bedpans every day, isn't it, pcjimmie?

Tex said...
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Tex said...
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Tex said...

On a recent thread, Beth rightly criticized those who were nasty about the 4 IBO's who recently died in an auto accident, apparently skidding on some ice on their way back from a major function, probably a Dream Weekend/Winter Function:

I made some suggestions that were never posted, namely, to adjust the major function schedule to keep it away from the peak icy months, especially for the northern locations, as well as adjust the content slightly to keep the emphasis on product knowledge and motivation, and putting the recognition and other LOS/LOA specific topics in the monthly seminars. This would allow local IBO's from all LOS/LOA's to attend more local major functions, further reducing the risk. Keep in mind IBO's typically stay up VERY late (or early morning) in these functions, and the exhaustion is VERY high, and probably contributed to the 4 deaths. Obviously, this is a potential legal issue for the LCK's and Amway, which is probably why it wasn't posted.

I later also suggested the "outside" IBO's could be sold different color tickets, and the first topic of each session could cover the LOS/LOA specific information, and the others let in afterwards. This comment was also not posted.

However, Beth did post a Larry Crow post criticizing ME, and Larry somehow thinks I don't have the right to speak up, especially since HE was also in the military and people died in exercises he was involved in, as if that was some kind of right of passage in order to voice an opinion. I told Larry, in an OZ friendly way, to eat his last name, that I was in plenty of military exercises and never lost any lives.

I informed Larry I wasn't blaming anyone, simply pointing out where improvements could be made.

However, I will make an effort to ensure these 4 families are considering legal action against the LCK's for holding functions in the manner described above, as it appears all reasonable discourse on this topic has been shut down.

Tex said...

P.S., I also made a comment to Beth that allowing someone (Larry) to attack me, without providing me an opportunity to defend myself, was not a good move.

Tex said...

P.P.S., another point I made with Beth was that I was more surprised these types of accidents didn't happen MORE often, as thousands of physically, mentally, and emotionally people leave the major functions.

Amway/LCK's, keep ignoring me at your own risk.

Owner said...
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Tex said...

My response below is to the "borderline" comment on Beth's blog, at:

I have no idea whether it will be published, so here it is. Every other issue should be preceded by the following disclaimer:

We would like to get your ideas regarding _____ (you name it), just realize you're not going to get to a net profit position until you reach about the Platinum level, because your upline LCK's are ripping you off via the tool scam. Co-founder Rich DeVos told them to knock off the tool scam over a quarter century ago, and then never took any meaningful action, but we'd like to get your input on ____ anyway. Hello? Hello? Anyone there? Hello?


It's been well documented "our opportunity" (see last sentence of your post) is not being honestly and transparently presented to prospects or IBO's.

A minority of the profit is made via Amway, the vast majority via the tool profits, which is not only dishonest, it keeps most IBO's below Platinum from having a net profit.

Therefore, my input was not borderline, it is THE main issue that makes the rest of the issues comparatively irrelevant.

Tex said...
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Tex said...

I've listened to a couple of LCK CD's recently that are quite insulting.

The first, by LCK's Ron and Georgia Puryear, "Dreamers", FED 16CD from 2002, starts out by Ron insulting Rich DeVos and the entire Amway business model.

He said things like Rich didn't understand the business he created, and said Rich's idea was for every IBO to sell products to the Platinum level, then sponsor other IBO's who would repeat this.

This is patently FALSE.

The other CD recorded LCK Greg Duncan, also in the 2002 timeframe, entitled "XS Energy Drink: Tastes Like A Million Bucks", BWW111CD.

Greg talked about how the criticism on the internet was done by those who wouldn't show themselves in the open, which is a perfect description of the LCK's not showing their faces online.

He also mentioned 240 Diamonds broke in South Korea that year, and tapes/CD's are not legal there.

Imagine that, the business grows without the tool scam, what a concept!

Owner said...
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Tex said...

Interesting comments on ibofb's site, starting with a comment by ajgannon on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:14 pm

It would be interesting to know the comments aj made to his upline diamond, and I also find it amazing how changing a key word here and there is seen as the solution, and not addressing the LCKs' tool scam.

Even accreditation doesn't address the tool scam, as I noted within days after accreditation was announced about 3 years ago.

Tex said...
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Tex said...

Riddle me this, Batman:

How is it I clearly state in my Amway approved presentation, there is NOT significant money made via tools for those joining our group, yet the LCK's whine about Amway not allowing THEM to discuss making tool profit money? THEY are the ones ripping people off via their tool scam, making most of their money via the tools and keeping most IBO's below Platinum from having a net profit? Why is that, Amway?

IBOFB said...

re Mr Million - he's deleting my comments and claiming I'm posting other ones that I'm not - including one using my moniker of IBOFB which is quite obviously not me.

Tex said...


Fair enough. Can you answer the question posed to Amway, above?

David Robison said...

Who is Mr Million? Link please?

Tex said...

Mr Million said...

Thanks Tex.

Quite a lot of tool scam information here on your site.

IBOFB said...

Dave, below is the reply I wrote to MM. The original had links to supporting information. MM deleted virtually the entire post and edited the last line to have me say -

I entirely agree - everyone would be better off playing lotto

Blatantly dishonest on his part. My original -

1. You didn't do a proper price comparison. We don't know if they're similar products, so they can't be compared. Are you claiming we can sensibly price compare a bicycle and a ferrari? Both are modes of transport whose primary purpose is to get you from A to B. There are other factors that come in to play.

2. You compared the RRP price of DishDrops, not the members price, yet are claiming the problem is people are enticed to join because the price is cheaper than retail, when if they join that's not the price they'll pay. What price will they pay? About 30% cheaper than the suggested retail. Having said that, I don't like this approach to recruitment, as I wrote in ABOs - Please stop selling Amway as a way to save money.

You ask -

1.Will it be easy to market the product knowing it is overpriced and has no physical advantage over the existing competitors?

Again, the two main products are Artistry and Nutrilite. Artistry is clearly cheaper than the competitors and Nutrilite clearly has an advantage. Will it be "easy"? Probably not, but sales & marketing isn't easy for most people. So what? What's more, if you think it's a problem, you're free to give it a trial for 3 months and get all your money back if you think it's not worth it.

2. Will it be easy to market to people when our company has such a massive stigma attached to it, and we use questionable tactics to recruit customers?

I don't use questionable tactics and neither do most people. Furthermore, the "stigma" is greatly exaggerated. Given that even in "old" markets like the US and Australia there are new platinum and higher qualifiers every year, it is evident that many folk are doing it just fine. The supposed "stigma" doesn't stop major international sports stars such as Ronaldinho and Adam Gilchrist supporting the company and products. What's more, if you think it's a problem, your free to give it a trial for 3 months and get all your money back if you think it's not worth it.

3. Is there enough potential return on my time and money investment to build a profitable business?.

An Amway business clearly offers significant potential return. It clearly requires hardwork, and it always surprises me that people like you believe that the fact that folk that do little or nothing make no money makes them, and the business opportunity, a failure.

Clearly you don't seem to believe in the idea that reward should be proportional to the effort - in which case we have a fundamentally different world view. If you do believe in that principle, and are willing to put them in action then the odds of success in Amway are very, very good.

If on the other hand you believe success in Amway is a matter of signing up, then waiting for "luck" to take you to success, then I entirely agree - you might be better off playing lotto.

Tex said...


Any chance those price reductions can get posted? I think this is excellent news, and would address the outdated price arguments going on right now.


It appears your commitment to not respond to me this year has backfired, as I knew it would. There is no way you would allow me to have control of a conversation, or the last word on something.

Also, you didn't respond to the question I posed to Amway, above. Don't you find it a bit odd, given the tool scam has been shut down in the UK, and curtailed in other places, such as Russia and India, that I can mention the tool scam is not part of my business model, yet the people ripping others off are free to leave this out of their presentation?

However, it does appear Mr Million owes us an explanation, as he appears to have done the very thing he accused you of doing.

Mr Million,

See above.

Also, not only is there a lot of information regarding tools on this site, much of it is sourced to a primary source. In other words, the SAME person who was making the tool scam money is making the statement, not a he said-she said, second, third, or other account of the facts. These statements are separated in time and affiliation, prior to the tool scam from being knit together as I have done on my site, and it is therefore HIGHLY unlikely these source conspired to tell a consistent story regarding the tool scam.

Tex said...

Here's another apparently blatant example of rule breaking, and has been forwarded to Amway:

They also need to update the Circuit City partner store, as Circuit City is going out of business. On second thought, the LCK's need to go out of business as well, but that's a different story.

Tex said...

By the way, the earlier complaints have not been fixed yet, so don't hold you breath for the one above to be fixed any time soon, either.

Tex said...

I sent the following comments to The Australian Financial Review editor, in response to ibofb's recent posting, found at:

In your recent article "Amway in bid to clean up its image", Tuesday, 20 January 2009, by Jeffrey Hutton, there were some factual errors/need for clarification:

1. The British government has not decided whether to shut Amway down yet,
2. This episode is just the latest in a story that started in May 2007, when Amway stopped most activities for about a year,
3. Most volume is not sold at retail, rather it is used by internal (IBO) consumers,
4. In many countries, inventories are a thing of the past, as customers generally order online,
5. Staying at $150 million/year is moving backwards, once inflation is taken into account
6. Considering the above, the number of IBO's quitting each month is about the same, or a little more, than those signing up,
7. China operates on an entirely different model than the rest of the world, and the storefronts have a completely different purpose than those in China,
8. The reasons for the shutdown in India were entirely different than in China
9. This is the major issue. It is easily found multiple TIMES the Amway profit is made on the motivational materials, and also results in most IBO's below the Platinum level (several dozen IBO's will be in a normal Platinum business) have a net loss, which means MOST IBO's lose money. Your statement, "The general complaint dogging Amway is the allegation it relies more on motivational material that touts the dream of making money, than on sales of make-up and cleaning products." This is NOT an allegation, it is a well documented FACT. You can find many direct sources of information on this site: . Note Amway does not make money directly from the motivational materials, but DOES allow the upline to do so, except where the local government has clamped down on this issue, such as Indian, China, South Korea, Russia, and most recently the UK. Note the episode that started in May 2007 and referenced in comment #2, above resulted in the UK government prohibiting ANY profit to be made on the motivational materials.
10. Mr. DeVos' statement, "There is a lot of confusion surrounding the brand," Mr DeVos said. "With so many people involved we haven't had a consistent message.", was created when his own father and Amway co-founder, Rich DeVos, identified this problem in 1983 and did virtually NOTHING to clean up the tool scam. You can find a recording and a transcript of another speech on the site mentioned above.

Thank you for correcting these issues. Feel free to e-mail me for additional clarification.


Tex said...

As a followup to our earlier "water" discussion, the equivalent of 212 degrees F is 100 degrees C. No wonder he thought degrees F and C are the same at a slightly different temperature than -40.

Mr Million said...

IBOFB accuses myself of editing his posts, with no proof whatsoever. As far as I know there is no way to edit posts on blogspot, and everyone is free to post under a name of their choice. Accusing me personally of posting under his name is clearly an attempt to take focus off and dilute the evidence that he was posting under multiple names from the same computer.

IBOFB's post above is similar, but not exactly the same to what was posted.
However, some posts by him have been insulting to others. It is clearly warned against this in my blog, and he has received personal warnings. Play like an adult or sit at the kids table, it's up to him.

Correlating a ferrari and bike vs dish drops and a competitor detergent is just ludicrous. I've already addressed how similar the products are.

After making the ferrari argument he then states "Artistry is clearly cheaper than the competitors and Nutrilite clearly has an advantage."
That is hypocrisy:- see ferrari vs bike.

Even if they were true, those hyped up sensational claims are also made without a shred of supporting evidence.

If he supplies some supporting (independent from Amway/LCK) evidence then we will glady look into it.

If he wishes to compare Amway products to a ferrari, post as multiple people to back up his unverified claims, he can do that on his own blog. End of discussion.

Tex said...

Mr Million,

It appears we have a disagreement, do you have any site logs that would demonstrate ibofb was on your site at the time the posts were written?

I agree with ibofb regarding prices, but only to a certain point.

Product quality should be factored in, but you can only "ride the horse so far," then the argument breaks down.

In other words, a certain amount of price difference should be considered, and it is acknowledged the topic of quality is somewhat subjective, but I have already demonstrated several products cost about the same or less on a per use basis.

In fact, I gave an example on your site regarding laundry detergent, that you ignored.

If you want to have a discussion, don't ignore the points others make. If you just want to throw diarrhea around, pcjimmie will gladly put it in his bedpan and take it out for you, I don't have time or interest to debate with a non-responsive person.

IBOFB said...

I first thought my post was deleted and somebody else posted a fake comment using my userid. I then noticed the fake post used virtually the same wording as the last sentence of my deleted post, so I assumed it was edited.

Either way, no small coincidence that the fake IBOFB post used virtually the same wording as my legitimate, missing post. Only one person had access to the deleted post - the site moderator, Mr Million. Clearly he either edited my post or deleted it and did the fake post.

He is also falsely claiming I've written other insulting posts and posted under multiple names. This is completely untrue. He claims he has access to the logfiles to prove it. He has my permission to post this what would otherwise be confidential information (like IP addresses). Of course, he could fake this as well.

Either way, there's only 2 possibilities - he either edited my post, or deleted it and put a fake one in it's place. I'm sure it's obvious that I would not have made the last post attributed to me. I also note that I post to his site logged in with my blogger account - which should automatically link to my blogger profile, as it does on this site where I do the same thing. Yet no link appears on the last 2 comments. One appears to be as I wrote it (though I have my doubts but haven't checked closely) the other has been deleted except the last line which was edited to change it's meaning and context.

Mr Million is clearly not being entirely honest.

Tex said...

I really don't care very much, as you are taking focus off the real problem, the tool scam.

Mr Million said...

The deeper you dig your hole the more respect you're losing (nobody else seems to respect you at all)...and other people are making us aware of your consistently deceptive ways.

Everything is always "clearly" this or that with you, with no evidence or analysis, youre a joke. "Clearly" there are more than 2 possibilities. Any number of people could have seen your comment pre-deletion, then posted as "you". For the post from your same IP under different names (You and I both know your IP, what is the point in posting it publicly?) perhaps you have a virus etc and someone used your computer to post under someone elses name, or more likely it was you who posted it.

You don't even know what posts are yours "One appears to be as I wrote it (though I have my doubts but haven't checked closely)".

In another rambling irrelevant comment you admitted that you were making insulting comments, and of course there are the insulting posts themselves you know you made.

You are truly delirious. Seek help.
Grow up and admit when you're wrong.
Stop polluting Tex and uur blogs. People don't take you seriously.

I wont bother continuing this discussion as it's clear you're out to deceive everyone with your diarrhoea of grossly biased untruths. For anyone else reading, consider any reply to this a lie (if it wasnt already obvious)

Tex said...

I really don't care very much, as you are taking focus off the real problem, the tool scam.

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