Thursday, June 12, 2008

Why Do It?

A recent exchange between Tex and a commenter named "Cowboy" prompts me to give the exchange it's own post.

Tex said...

"I'm not inactive, but I'm not sponsoring/registering any IBO's. I can't in good faith sponsor someone into a tool scam damaged business, with an "unconscionable" set of rules, and with a rules department that is no help."

June 10, 2008 7:50 PM
Cowboy said...
"I can't in good faith sponsor someone into a tool scam damaged business, with an "unconscionable" set of rules, and with a rules department that is no help."

So why do you think the [Q]uixtar business is even worth the effort?

June 12, 2008 11:53 AM
Tex said...

"Because most IBO's with the same issues walk away, and the same problems go on and on, ripping off new IBO's.

Someone had to stand up and stop the tool scam (by far the largest of the problems), and I picked me.

There are a few (very few) others who are also involved, and I figure one person with the truth is enough to eventually become successful in this effort, especially with the help of the Internet."


(Emphasis added by Blog Administrator)

29 comments:

Tex said...

Interesting discussion going on over on ibofb's site, whether an IBO gets their products for "free" once their other volume (retail and downline volume) is paying out more than the cost of personal purchases.

Two points:

1. It is recognized by all that effort went into the ability to obtain such products, regardless of whether you use the term "free" or not, and

2. They care so much about the term "free" in this context but are oblivious to the tool scam, a much more significant issue. Quite sad.

Cowboy said...

Wow, a post with my name? I'm flattered. LOL

Regards to "free", there's nothing "free". Even if volume covers the cost of products, there's time spent attending meetings and things associated with the business. Unless your time isn;t worth much??

Tex said...

You also spend time shopping at Walmart (or any other store). The difference is you don't get a return benefit from shopping there, you only get the opportunity to go back and shop some more. Therefore, asssuming your business grows, there is a big difference, and it can be referred to legitimately as getting your products for free, with the appropriate and accurate explanation. This was covered in #1, above.

#2 is a much more significant and meaningful point.

Tex said...

From ibofb's site, ibofb said:

Bridgett makes an excellent point (as usual!). ---- Her point is ONLY true if one ignores retail (non-IBO) sales. It's true many groups do ignore retail sales, and that's why A/Q is concerned.

Indeed, if you are promoting purchasing the products because they become "free", ie paid for by the business income, and that business income is generated by recruiting others with the same type of promotion ... well, you're in serious trouble. ---- This appears to contradict ibofb's earlier position retailing isn't important. Which way is it, ibofb? You can't have it both ways, depending on the circumstances.

The products are no longer being purchased out of legitimate demand, which leads to two major problems - (1) There are no longer supply/demand economic forces acting on Amway to become more efficient in production and pricing. ---- Again, you are ignoring retail sales. The intent of non-IBO sales is to demonstrate the unbiased market demand for the price/quality (value) of the products.

(2) Your bonuses are becoming defacto payments for recruiting, rather than payment for desired products. You're operating an illegal pyramid. ---- Uh oh, here we go again, contradicting your earlier position that retailing isn't important. ibofb, you are getting REALLY confused.

Clearly, no matter what the "fuzzy truth" is, it's not a good idea."

Tex said...

I neglected to comment on the last statement:

Clearly, no matter what the "fuzzy truth" is, it's not a good idea. ---- In the proper context, it's a very valid idea to illustrate getting your products for free (products you would have bought somewhere else regardless), and beyond that point, you make pure profit.

Tex said...

rlaurens recently said on qblog:

Haven't you read Tex' position on this? He said paying sales tax is for losers. ---- I have no clue which of my posts he twisted to get this false idea.

Anonymous said...

What if a Diamond started their own training system, focusing on a balanced business with personal use, retailing and sponsoring.
If that Diamond is making more profit from Quixtar than the system, (still making some profit on tools) but have to charge more for their tools than other systems. Would you still consider that a scam? What if all IBOs were aware of some profit potential from the system at a certain level?

Tex said...

In your theoretical conditions, that would NOT be a scam, as the main incentive is to produce A/Q profit, not tool scam profit.

I see ZERO reason to require the prospect/IBO to wait until a "certain level" prior to becoming aware of the tool profit model, however. The conept is one of tranparency, not secrecy. Why would you hide a profit aspect from your future and fellow teammates and business partners?

I also find it virtually impossible for the tools to actually cost even close to the current prices to produce, as technology has allowed the tools to cost less than before, and they would have to cost several times more to produce than the current selling price to even be an issue.

As an example, it cost about $1 to produce a CD. It is typically sold for about $6-7, resulting in $5-6 profit. An MP3 audio cost pennies per copy to produce, and could be sold for far less than $1 per copy. However, the MP3 audio would have to cost $5-6 per copy to produce for it not to be cost advantageous to a CD, and would still result in $1-2 profit per copy.

Technology advances over the past few decades has allowed the distribution of information to be virtually free, except in the lying cowardly "kingpin" tool scam systems.

Tex said...

Recent posts on ibofb's site:

ajgannon: I've had several debates with Tex on the Alticor Blog and on SpeakingofAmway, but I still do not understand why nothing else in the business matters until the "tool scam" is eliminated? ---- You only need ONE reading of the facts to understand the lies about lifestyle that come from the lying cowardly "kingpins", and the lack of net profit for most IBO's. Google "Rich DeVos Directly Speaking" and focus on the tool profit portion of the recordings.

ibofb: Well, it's become an issue because there's been a few inter-IBO lawsuits about it. As for Tex, he's just an obsessive. I'd advise not to worry about him, but on the other hand I've learned that post-UK win, he actually complained directly to BERR that judge was too lenient! So he's actively causing damage. ---- It's not just the lawsuits, it's the IBO's getting ripped off. If I'm obsessive for what is right, I'll gladly accept your "accusation." Actually, I communicated to the BERR the judge went too far with zero tool profit, and transparency with reasonable tool profits is the right answer. If you consider that "actively causing damage", I'll take that label and wear it proudly as well.

There's been problems with perhaps excessive profiteering from tools, like many things about Amway though, the "critics" (including Tex) ignore anything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions and are mostly overgeneralized and outdated. It then becomes something to whine about for those looking for something to whine about. ---- I use facts, not "preconceived notions" that are "mostly overgeneralized and outdated." Some of the facts I use are less than a year old, such as the Michigan judge commenting on Orrin's $10 million/year Quixtar tool profit.

Cowboy said...

Actually, I generally agree with you Tex. If the diamonds are showing off 10 carat diamond rings, Ferraris, and Amrani suits all acquired by Amway income, then why do they need to make a fortune on tools?

To me, it's deceptive and unethical to do that. People who promote it as such are unethical and deceptive as well.

Tex said...

The fact is, most of them CAN'T buy the expensive goodies you mentioned with their Amway income, they use the tool scam money for that and pretend it came from Amway. That's the point.

Cowboy said...

So Amway recruiters and people like IBOFB are scammers if they promote a rich lifestyle attained my Amway, but in reality are milking the cash cow called tools.

Tex said...

Yes, and I would add the term "knowingly promote", and ibofb definitely falls into that category. In fact, he knows so much, and is so visible on the internet, that he should be considered a triple dipple Crown Ambassador Scammer.

There are many that promote the tools that don't have a clue regarding the tool profits. ibofb is not one of these.

Tex said...

A recent post by ibofb on Chuck's site:

Anyone of you US folk who are so sure of how things with Amway in the rest of world need to move elsewhere and build the business so you understand that Amway’s (and LOA) failings aren’t unique to the US and you have many advantages the rest of the world would die for. ---- Until the tool scam is cleaned up, everything else is window dressing. I've maintained that position for years.

StickShark, the US arm is actively seeking IBO input on the Opportunity Zone and has done for well over a year. They’ve been asking how they can grow! The result? A recent post there begins “Hello? Anybody out there?” because IBOs aren’t communicating. ---- This is the equivalent of the cheating spouse sleeping around, getting caught, then they act "nice" but continues to cheat.

Chuck, I’m just astounded that after all the changes of the past year or so, you’re still saying “sometimes some of us have a hard time believing the company is really going to come through with anything meaningful.” ---- The above is what Chuck meant by "anything meaningful."

Believe me, we would LOVE all of those things in the rest of the world. You have no idea how fortunate you are in the US, yet all I see here is generally non-constructive criticism and no praise or support of the huge number of very positive changes that are occurring. ---- See above, ibofb, you just don't get it, or don't want to get it.

Sometimes divorce is the sensible option. Change is a two-way street. ---- I agree, I "divorced" the lying cowardly "kingpins" over 3 years ago.

Anonymous said...

"What if all IBOs were aware of some profit potential from the system at a certain level?"

Sorry for the ambiguous statement. I meant the system profit available at a certain level, the knowledge/awareness of tool profit available to ALL IBOs.

Do you know what the total overhead is for some of the larger training systems? Including staff, tool development, video/audio editing, function coordinating, etc. Not too mention the cost of the advanced technology you speak of. To have the firepower to handle a robust website.

Anonymous said...

I agree, I don't need exact numbers, a general percentage would do.

The point is this shouldn't be a "hide and go seek" exercise. We know from numerous lawsuits, statements from former IBO's, and the silence on the part of the current scammers significant profit ALL point in the same direction, that tool scam profit is several times more than the A/Q profit. If any of them had significantly less than this, they would be shouting it from the mountaintops. Problem is, they all charge about the same for tools, so unless their production costs are significantly more, they are making similar tool scam protits, though each one can split it up differently. From an IBO perspective, the view is the same, and it stinks.

Tex said...

I agree, I don't need exact numbers, a general percentage would do.

The point is this shouldn't be a "hide and go seek" exercise.

We know from numerous lawsuits, statements from former IBO's, and the silence on the part of the current scammers significant profit ALL point in the same direction, that tool scam profit is several times more than the A/Q profit.

I'm talking about what's left over, after all the costs you listed are paid for.

If any of them had significantly less than this, they would be shouting it from the mountaintops.

Problem is, they all charge about the same for tools, so unless their production costs are significantly more, they are making similar tool scam protits, though each one can split it up differently.

From an IBO perspective, the view is the same, and it stinks.

Cowboy said...

Despite testimonials and some evidence from former big pins, we know that tools income is very significant.

Those who hide it are being deceptive. One blogger comes to mind in this regard.

Tex said...

Who cares about ibofb?

We need to get as many IBO's as possible to complain to Quixtar, the FTC, BBB, your U.S. Senator, attorney generals, the DSA, mass media, etc., regarding the tool scam.

It's past time to turn it up a notch. I've done all the above, but it will take more folks doing this to be effective. All these organizations/individuals have been contacted by me, and when more folks do it, we'll get some attention.

Cowboy said...

"Who cares about ibofb?"

My concern is because he runs a website that is called "The Truth About Amway".

Some people might believe it?

I was contemplating starting my own blog to support your efforts, Tex.

Tex said...

I'm not in favor of all of us all having our own blogs, it dilutes the discussion. The only reason I don't post on other blogs is because I've been "banned" from them. If you start one, I'll probably drop this one and join yours.

I think it would be much more productive to contact the entities listed above, and encourage other IBO's to do the same.

Tex said...

Found on quixtar.com. This appears to water down the "stacking" issue:

Changes to new IBO registration process
Registration just got easier!

Effective immediately, the sponsor’s signature will no longer be required to complete the new IBO Registration Agreement; a change prompted by input from IBO leaders.
The IBO’s signature will still be required on the hard copy of the Registration Agreement.


A number of IBOs have initiated Registration Agreements in the past 30 days. Those Agreements were deemed incomplete if they were missing the sponsor’s signature. Now, however, those Agreements have been processed as complete, and the affected IBOs, as well as their sponsors and Platinums, are being notified of this change.

This change supersedes any online instructions and forms to the contrary. We’re in the process of updating those instructions and forms to reflect this new policy.

Tex said...

Check out Orrin's blog, he claims to be on a campaign for truth. He should start with describing how much tool profit he and others made when he was with A/Q.

http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog

Cowboy said...

Tex, what do you think about accreditation?

Tex said...

I think it's like putting a Good Housekeeping Seal of approval on a pile of crap.

Although the things they fix need to be fixed, these issues pale in comparison to the tool scam, and accreditation does NOTHING to provide visibility of the tool profits to the typical prospect/IBO.

I've had this same opinion since I called Quixtar a few days after the accredition site was available, and was as disappointed then as I am now.

Cowboy said...

"I think it's like putting a Good Housekeeping Seal of approval on a pile of crap."

LOL LOL Good one!

Tex said...

Not only that, but it stinks, too.

Tex said...

I've been in contact with the DSA (Direct Selling Association, of which A/Q is a member), and they have been instructed by their lawyers not to comment on the UK case, as it is currently being appealed by the UK BERR. Although common in this situation, I find it very interesting how a couple of weeks ago their position was they were studying the UK decision for "lessons learned" (I reminded them the lesson was taught in 1983, via the "Directly Speaking" recordings by Rich DeVos, which can be found on the internet), and only now are they getting around to taking a position on ethical and moral behavior, yet they are unable to comment on same. Oh what a tangled web we weave....meanwhile IBO's continue to get ripped off by the lying cowardly "kingpins."

Tex said...

I have completed a cycle of communication with one of my US Senator offices, and have run into a wall.

The FTC needs more input from those harmed by the tool scam.

This input will help shut down the tool scam. Please encourage ANYONE you know who has been harmed to visit the FTC site and submit a complaint. Also contact your US, state, and local governmental representatives with the same message. You will help stop the millions of former and current Distributors/IBO's, who have lost tens of BILLIONS of dollars for the past 3+ decades to the lying cowardly "kingpin" tool scammers.

Please post this message on every blog you can, and contact anyone you know who has been harmed. Take action and protect your fellow citizens.

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