Saturday, February 9, 2008

The NeverEnding Quixtar/Amway Tool Scam

TEX POSED THE QUESTION:

"Why is the tool scam still alive and well?...The topic here is the tool scam."


As Blog Administrator, I'll pose the question as well.

Is the tool scam alive because of the "lying cowardly kingpins' greed"?

Is it a Laissez-faire attitude of Alticor Corporate, that is allow independent business owners to run their motivational businesses separate; or a fear of losing more high-level IBOs?

Is it merely legally unavoidable?

Is it apathy among lower level IBOs?

Is it stupidity among lower level IBOs?

Is it Brainwashing?

Blackmail?

Why is the tool scam still alive and well?

32 comments:

Tex said...

As I wasn't involved in the business in 1983, I can only offer a theory. In those days, most of the volume was in the U.S. and Canada, so when Rich DeVos made his critical "Directly Speaking" recordings, threats of leaving by the lying cowardly "kingpins" influenced Amway to back down (as an aside, my former Diamond was instructed to destroy any "Directly Speaking" tape he came across, and I believe this was well before the time he was a Diamond). After all, Rich and Jay had a lot of money tied up in equipment, people, buildings, etc., and didn't want to see their growing business fail. It is understandable they allowed the the LCK's to push them around, but they should have had a plan to stop the tool scam as soon as practical.

Answering your questions: Yes, the tool scam is alive because of the LCK's greed.

It is also the laissez-faire attitude of A/Q, my nearly hour long phone call with Ron Mitchell and Karen O'Neill last week resulted in Ron stating the corp considers the tool scam to be "free enterprise in action", even after I offered my view of the tool scam and associated factors that make it a scam to me.

The tool scam is NOT legally unavoidable. It is a moral and ethical outrage.

It isn't so much apathy among lower level IBO's, it is more

1. Ignorance (not using this term as a slam, just not being aware the scam exists) and

2. Feeling trapped by the scam, as they have no other logical option,

3. They have been lied to by the upline in various ways, including the internet is the bathroom walls, not that much is made on tools, silence, etc., and

4. The "no negative downline" and "no crosslining has limited the ability of most IBO's to find out the tool scam truth.

There are a few IBO's who are quite stupid, no doubt about this.

I don't like the "brainwashing" term, it makes you look like a kook and the issue is lying, not brainwashing.

I think it was blackmail in the early days, now it is corporate lack of spine to do the right thing.

The key is to cause more pain for the LCK's and Quixtar to keep the status quo, it is only when the pain to keep the current scenario is greater than the pain to change will change occur.

Tex said...

This may deserve it's own thread, but it is also an illustration about how much in bed the IBOAI and Quixar are. Below is a post on the IBOAI Board blog, my comments in brackets:

"The Truth About the Morrison Decision [LCK "truth" is a lie]

There are already false [again, opposites apply, so false=true] rumors online about an appeals court decision in the Morrison v. Amway Corp. case. The decision, which is not yet final [only Supreme Court decisions are final, and even these are turned around from time to time, but VERY infrequently. Most lower court decisions are not overturned, but when they are, it is very unusual for the Supreme Court to even accept the case, and when they sometimes do accept the case, they usually agree with the higher court ruling], and could be changed in future court proceedings, does not apply to current arbitration rules, which can't be changed except by mutual agreement of Quixtar and the IBOAI, and it also doesn't apply to disputes that arose after arbitration became part of the IBO contract in 1998 [This is a good one, the LCK IBOAI "protecting" IBO's against the big bad corporation. This is a TOTAL crock of doo doo.] This ruling therefore should not affect any current case (the Morrison case was more than ten years old)[My reading of the ruling is the one-sided nature of Quixtar holding all the cards is the reason, and the IBOAI should make IBO's feel MORE nervous about arbitration, not less].

The ruling issued on February 6 by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in Morrison v. Amway Corp. specifically states only that it applies "to the claims asserted in the instant suit." [Every court decides on "the instant case", it is their job to confine their opinion to the case before the court.] The Court's discussion of the claims in Morrison and the arbitration agreement as it existed in 1998 show that the ruling does not apply to the Quixtar-IBOAI arbitration rules as they currently exist, and also does not apply to disputes that arose after the arbitration agreement became part of the IBO contract in 1998 [This could be challenged in court, as it has not been proven the changes that have occurred move the arbitration process across the line between "unconscionable" to neutral.]

First, the court (describing the 1998 version of the arbitration rules) stated that "[t]here is no express exemption of the arbitration provisions from Amway's ability to unilaterally modify all rules . . . ." This is certainly not true of the Quixtar-IBOAI arbitration rules as they exist today and have existed for many years. Rule 11.5.1 of the Rules of Conduct specifically provides:

"These Rules shall be amended only by mutual agreement
between the Corporation [Quixtar] and the IBOA International
Board." [As noted above, this should make IBO's more concerned, not less concerned]

This language is clear and unequivocal - Quixtar cannot change the Quixtar-IBOAI arbitration agreement without the agreement of the IBOAI Board. Whatever the court believed about Amway's ability to modify the 1998 rules is not true of the present day rules [They are correct here, changes have been made, the issue is whether those changes are for the good. In my opinion, the IBOAI's involvement makes it worse].

Second, the court stressed that the disputes between the Morrison plaintiffs and Amway arose before the arbitration agreement became part of the Amway contract effective January 1, 1998 [This was a factor, but not the major factor, in their decision]. This reasoning would not apply to any IBO whose dispute arose after 1998." [See above]

It would be great to get a neutral attorney/judge to interpret the decision, and give their view of this decision.

Mike said...

If ya take a step back...a really far step back.

The Lying Cowardly Kingpins, are not really lying nor cowardly.

As far as not making a large profiting from the tool sales, that would be the most damning ommission they told.

These high-priest of the AMO's have preached the gospel of training and motivating..to get folks in a postive attitude to sell...sell. or better yet...buy...buy and keep on buying, for that is what the faithful need to do to reach the ultimate goal of getting others to do the same.


The tool scam exist for one reason only..folks allow it to happen.

They want an easy way out..all ya gotta to is say "here listen to this tape, go to this function"..the listener is hoping to find the way to have it all, without doing much for it, if it means just listening to a tape.

Those professors of free enterprise have always stated that they are there to motivate and train, the tapes help with that, the functions will do that..mostly if that is what you do.

Ya wanna make big money in the Amway business..the really big money..motivate and train..that is where the money is.

Tex said...

mike,

If the LCK's said, "Ya wanna make big money in the Amway business..the really big money..motivate and train..that is where the money is.", then they wouldn't be LCK's.

But they DON'T say this, and THAT is why they ARE LCK's.

Tex said...

This is what I see on a pending comment which has not yet been posted on the Amway blog:

*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE ***
*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE ***
*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE ***

Admin,

As I stated on “my” blog recently:

“If we were discussing baseball, the important topics would be the basics of baseball. Defense, hitting, pitching, and running.

If we were discussing the construction industry, we would talk about materials, architecture, building codes, etc.

But we are talking business. Business is about making money, the source of profits, overhead, pricing, etc.

THE biggest issue with Quixtar IS the lying cowardly “kingpins”, and how they have for decades ripped off millions of Distributors/IBO’s for hundreds of millions to
10’s of billions of dollars by using the A/Q business as a bait-and-switch operation. The LCK’s make MUCH more from tools than A/Q [are not honest about this fact], and it causes net losses for most other IBO’s. Are there other issues? Of course, product pricing is one of them, but a distant second compared to the tool scam.”

When you add in the issues of most IBO’s not having business experience and many of them having previous relationships (friends, relatives) with their sponsors, there is a very high level of assumed trust. Then throw in the fact the upline refers to their downline as their “business partners” and “teammates”, and the issue of many upline not earning the A/Q income that matches their pin, although they display a lifestyle that far exceeds the pin they wear, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I know the corp. isn’t too concerned about this, as I spent almost an hour on the telephone with Ron Mitchell and Karen O’Neill (Rules Administration) this morning, and it was clearly communicated the Quixtar corporate view of the tool profits is “free enterprise at work”, even though the level of tool profit information is kept hidden from most IBO’s and prospects.

Stay clueless at the peril of your reputation.

*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE ***
*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE ***
*** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE *** *** DO NOT APPROVE

Tex said...

Because of technical issues, I am unable to play this beyond about 3 minutes, but I am told Orrin mentions how great Quixtar prices are in this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3967537381141813646&q=orrin+woodward&total=37&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Tex said...

Here's 4 of the current IBOAI "leaders" yakking away. Their talk was about nothing. I have never heard so much talk about nothing. http://www.iboai.com/IBOAI-Info-News-IBOAINews-IBOAI-Quixtar-Amway-Global-Achievers.asp

Tex said...

Here's a post I sent to the IBOAI blog that will never see the light of day over there. Enjoy.

Haven't you guys figured out how lame your blog is?

Either you don't get many posts to approve or you screen most of them out.

Take your pick, but it's obvious your blog sucks.

I know you won't post this one either, so I'll post it on "my" blog instead.

Tex said...

The above mentioned OW (Orrin Woodward, or the sound you make when you hit yourself on the thumb with a hammer) at exactly the 5:00 minute mark, says Quixtar has "world class products at world class prices".

Was he lying then or in his "illegal pyramid" lawsuit?

Anonymous said...

nice monologue

Tex said...

Thanks for ruining it.

Tex said...

As predicted many months ago, Orrin's 6 month non-compete has been extended for at least 45 days. I don't know about the lying cowardly "kingpins" who joined him on the lawsuit, but it looks like a rocky restart for TEAM, not to mention the numerous Orrinites who can't live with "Walmart of the internet" with $45 bottles of juice in a "whine" bottle. It's all on Orrin's blog for your reading pleasure.

Looks to me like a lot of his TEAM is going to abandon him.

Outsider said...

Hey tex, did you hear about insider? His ID was revealed and his business is nothing, not even close to platinum. The tools don't work.

www.amquix.info

Tex said...

I saw it. I went on record a long time ago saying I didn't care who he is, and still don't.

How does knowing his identity mean the tools don't work? The proof the tools work is the $1 Billion Quixtar annual volume, and $7 Billion worldwide volume.

In fact, this is proof the tools work DESPITE the tool scam. Imagine if the tool prices were lowered and tool scam didn't exist. I bet $70 Billion is easily reachable.

Outsider said...

well, insider exploits women by supporting businesses that exploit women. You seem to have made an issue of that.

insider - a liar and failed IBO. Ironic.

Tex said...

Insider being two-faced is nothing new to me.

Good job completely changing the subject, I'll assume you agree with my previous response, since you offered no counterpoint.

Outsider said...

I agree that the tools business in unethical. But let me qualify that. If a significant number of IBO's were going diamond by using the system, I don't think its a scam. But when hardly anyone goes diamond and the system is promoted as your key to "Shangri'la", then it's a scam.

Tex said...

That's like saying any scam is okay as long as it is producing more victims.

The key factor in being a scam isn't whether the scam is working to produce growth.

The key is whether those "succeeding" are lying about the source of their income. The growth of the 1980's was as much (or more, as more people were being scammed every year) of a scam as the stagnant growth of the past dozen years.

It is somewhat less of a scam now as there is much more information available for prospects and IBO's regarding the scam.

However, the upline continues to call anything found on the internet as "bathroom wall" writing.

But the sheer volume and reliability of the sources are becoming impossible to make this argument stick.

It will no longer be a scam when the truth is told and full tool profit transparency is available to prospects and IBO's.

Outsider said...

It's not a scam if it's working for people. What - you have shirts for brains tex?

Anna28 said...

For maybe the third time ever...I am with tex on this one. You know he has a point "outsider", that's why you suddenly sunk to a childish level. If tex has shirts for brains and can make sense about this part of the tools scam, then what would that give you for brains?


PS...Take the blog tex...take it, make some good posts...you know you can and you want to.

Tex said...

outsider,

Even when the business was in a growth mode, most folks were operating at a net loss until they got to Platinum. For every Platinum, assume 100 are less than Platinum, and you have a business model that "worked" for less than 1% at any given time. While a small percentage of the 100 eventually made it to Platinum, there were MANY more who had to quit because they were losing money. THAT is NOT what I would call a scenario that is "working for people". It's still a scam.

Anna's right, you are wrong and had to stoop to silly insults.

Anna,

Thanks for putting outsider in his (her?) rightful place. I know I could take over the blog but have no interest in doing so, for a variety of reasons.

Outsider said...

tex, it's a scam because most people who buy into the tools systems don't make any money. If say 50% of tools purchasers reached platinum, it wouldn't be a scam because a significant number succeed from the system.

Tex said...

outsider,

You still don't get it. If 50% of a group of say, 100 IBO's goes Platinum, and assume each Platinum has 100 IBO's each, then you have created 50x100=5,000 new tool scam victims. If you keep assuming 50% of the new 5,000 IBO's goes Platinum, then you have 250,000 new victims.

Of course, you will soon run out of humans with this example, so let's use real numbers, as far more than 50% of IBO's quit in their first year, many of them getting scammed along the way and many of them not even realizing it. Not to mention the IBO's who don't quit in the first year, and get ripped off for multiple years.

Any way you slice it, using outrageous or typical numbers, it's a scam.

Outsider said...

But tex, it's not a scam if the system is churning out success.

The "scam" is people buying into a foolproof system that doesn't work.

Tex said...

Outsider,

Did you actually READ my last post? The factor that makes it a scam is the secret profit. Stop belching out your talking points and THINK for a change.

Outsider said...

What secret? Most kingpins tell their sheep that they profit from tools.

Tex said...

outsider,

Only recently, and because they have been forced to based on what's on the internet. Also, the rules contain this concept. However, how many of them tell their flock how much more they make from tools versus Quixtar?

joecool said...

tex, most IBOs know that there is profit from tools. Yes, I agree that many uplines downplay the magnitude of their profits.

So in your opinion, where is the middle ground where it wouldn't be a scam?

Tex said...

I answered this question. See previous thread.

Joecool said...

Tex says: How does knowing his identity mean the tools don't work? The proof the tools work is the $1 Billion Quixtar annual volume, and $7 Billion worldwide volume.

In fact, this is proof the tools work DESPITE the tool scam. Imagine if the tool prices were lowered and tool scam didn't exist. I bet $70 Billion is easily reachable.

Joecool says: No. If the corporation really believed this. the kingpin diamonds would have been homeless years ago.

The corporation need the kingpins to teach "buy from yourself - do 100 - 150 PV, and in turn the corporation looks the other way when the IBOs get smashed in debt from the tools.

The only purpose the tools serve, is to provide some motivation, but more importantly, the dedication to tools is the loyalty the downline have to their upline kingpins.

Tex said...

Wrong. If the corp did this years ago, the LCK's would have pulled up the tent stakes and moved to another company with their tool scams. Then the company would have probably failed, because as you accurately described, the LCK's built the loyalty to their tools, not Amway products. Only when the internet and government regulators come along, did A/Q recognize it was harder to keep the status quo than to change are now finally clamping down on the LCK's.

As I've said MANY times before, the LCK's are guilty of what they DID (the tool scam) and A/Q is guilty for what they DIDN'T DO (shut down the tool scams).

Anonymous said...

Hi Everyone

This programm really sucks.. If its really genuine business they should be open enough what they are going to do and what should i to earn money whatever they say..

I am new to California, coming from India for a business trip. When I tried to contact people from social community. One of the guy whom I met in net, said ur very ambitious and so on.. I will suggest you something which will make ur dream come true very soon..

K lets see I said. He took me for a meeting like Brainstorming session.. one gentleman started to address the session nicely.. He started with building sw BWW and talked abt Quixtar.. And said he can retire at the age of 35+ and earn million by just doing this business..
I didnt find any logic what he is talking about.. Interesting thing is I can see lot people from highly designated professionals from software side... Everyone talking about early retirement by joining this Quixstar business.. If they are right almost 70 percentage of population doesnt need to do full time job.... Then where does the money comes from... Hope everyone agress with me...

After some weeks one more guy called me, hey I will introduce to group of people who are business man.. They will help you to start businness as a part time.. I asked him is it Quixstar... No no He said.. but still i doubted him...

So whats there lets go and attend that meetin too.. After few minutes this another set of people with same presentation they started talking..

They way convience people is as if they are certain that you will earn thousands of dollar as soon as you join the team.. No way...

The beautiful part all the people whom I met till they end they have nt said anything how one is going to make money either its comission when u join new one or sell a product or something else...

I got only one answer.. First you join you will get to know everything...

This says everything what this business is rgt..

Let me tell u something... No one can earn money by simply sitting at home and talkin to peoples.. The peoples who works for company and go at office are fools...

Now its upto you r u want to be fool or good human being..

I want global community to ban this fraud group..

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